In a message dated 9/23/2000 2:28:12 PM, mbachofen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
<< Your statement is untrue because it is incorrect by any reasonable
measurement.
Your statement is not false "as a result of propagandizing or because it is
something you have been told". It is false because no reasonable person
could conclude that a U.S. citizen traveling within the United States or
abroad has freedom of travel not surpassed by a Swiss Citizen, or citizens
of the EU. Hmmm. Now do we have to define freedom? Perhaps. I stand by
my statement.
m. bachofen >>
Let me see if I understand. My statement is false because no "reasonable
person" (I'm assuming that you since you made the original statement) *could*
conclude that a U.S. citizen traveling within the United States or abroad has
freedom of travel not *surpassed* (Not equalled, surpassed. Right?) by a
Swiss Citizen, or citizens of the EU.
I think I have it. You're saying that Swiss citizens and all citizens of the
EU (European Union?) have more freedom of travel than a US citizen within the
US. Right? Are you specifying those citizens traveling in their own country
or country to country? I specified in country.
Perhaps you need to give me your definition of freedom. I'm thinking like
this: freedom n. 1. The condition of being free of restraints. 2. Liberty of
the person from slavery, detention, or oppression. 3.a. Political
independence. b. Possession of civil rights; immunity from the arbitrary
exercise of authority. 4. Exemption from an unpleasant or onerous condition.
5. The capacity to exercise choice; free will. 6. Ease or facility of
movement. 7. a. The right to unrestricted use; full access. b. The right of
enjoying all of the privileges of membership or citizenship.
In other words, I'm simply referring to filling up the old jalopy with gas
and going anywhere in the US I want to go (without deliberately putting
myself in a precarious position, obviously) without the necessity to carry
any identification papers other than my driver's license (since I'm driving),
any currency other than US, and obtaining any approval other than my own will
and with no fear of repercussions for what I responsibly say or legally do.
Now let's try surpass: To be or go beyond, as in degree or quality; exceed.
If I read you correctly, you are telling me that any Swiss or EU citizen has
freedom of movement in his/her country which *exceeds* that of any US citizen
in his/her country and that any reasonable person (meaning you and anyone who
agrees with you) would conclude that. Hmmm. In other words, anyone who could
conclude otherwise in thereby *not* a reasonable person by your definition.
Ergo, I am unreasonable. Well, let's see.
Reasonable adj. 1. Capable of reasoning; rational. 2. Governed by or being in
accordance with reason or sound thinking. 3. Being within the bounds of
common sense. 4. Not excessive or extreme; fair.
Let's see: I'll spot you "capable of reasoning" because I'm a fair sort of
guy. Rational? OK. Goes with the first part. "Governed by or being in
accordance with reason or sound thinking?" I'm having a problem giving you
this. (Surpassed? Please.) "Being within the bounds of common sense?"
(Surpassed? Give me a break.) You missed that one, too. "Not excessive or
extreme; fair?" (Surpassed. Poppycock!)
Stand by your statement all you will, fellow Oly fan. That statement is a
crock!
Unreasonable Robert
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