Warning, long, rambly and quotes lots of stuff you've seen before in
order to give my bloated opinions context.
Moose
Gregg Iverson wrote:
It seems to me that those who started this list accomplished what they
set out to do, that is discover all things OM.
Certainly I have learned more about OM from this list and the resources
it pointed me to (esp. Lee's site) than any other single source except
years of experience with an OM-1 and 2n.
I think we have rehashed our knowledge base so many times over the
years, for the benefit of newcomers, that it has taken the interest
out of the discussion. We had become like old men sitting around
telling war stories. It has gotten to the point we don't even refer
people to the archives when an oft repeated thread returns!
This was somewhat true for me within a year of joining. But new things
still pop up!
This list has definitly changed. Now it is more a list of buddies,
who share a common interest, chatting about life in general. Now, a
bit of new blood, or fresh air, if you will, has come to our list in
the form of digital cameras, scanners, software, etc. We have the
choice of adding this area of interest to the list, or of splitting
off into separate list discussion groups.
It seems to me that digital is different than just issues of other
brands. A great many of us would like to use digital for some of our
image making and the OM system just isn't going there. So we are in the
position of trying to find ways to integrate digital with our OM
equipment, continue to use our Zuikos with digital in some way, etc. If
the E-1 and succesors do not accomodate these needs, a lot of us are
going to be looking for a DSLR system that complements our existing OM
film equipment. It would sure be nice if it had some of the qualities
that attracted us to Oly in the first place, esp. if it allowed using
our specialized Zuikos in stop-down metering mode. Thus I find the
current 'intrusion' of digital, including non Oly experimentation by
established and experienced Zuikoholics quite useful. I think it would
lose it's 'life' if separated from the list. I expect that a ways down
the road, this may no longer be the case. For now, I'm more much more
interested in Tom's experience with the D100 than in donuts on the list.
But we have been there and done that! Remember how we split several
years ago into a separate list for for sale or wanted announcements?
It didn't work. Right now there is another list at Olympusinfo.com
that caters more toward the digital spectrum that is also not very
effective. I would really be surprised if this time it will work to
split the group, either. Something about the personalities of Olympus
users seems to shape the list into what it currently is.
Jon Mitchell wrote:
I heartily agree with the posts that this list has evolved. Personally, I feel
that this is good. To me it is more than an Olympus List - it is a
place I can share ideas and thoughts about photography in general (or indeed
about life in general / donuts / etc as has been proved recently). Most
importantly, it is a list where we can share these thoughts, discussions, etc.,
with people here who have become friends - or at least as far as one
can become friends on an email list.
The level of personal support that comes out of this list, which I don't
believe would be present if the list had stayed as a purely OM list (no
off-topic, etc.) is unknown to me on any other Email List / internet group / etc. People
offering loans of equipment to people they have never met, for example. This would not
have come about were it not for the relaxed, friendly, informal "chatty"
atmosphere on here. Granted, this can cause the occasional spat, but it seems to die
down fairly quickly.
Certainly I like that aspect of the list. On the other hand, the donut,
SUV, aeroplane, etc., etc. threads do make the total number of posts
daunting, and could drive some potentially valuable members away. More
below.
My only request, which may possibly be considered as some kind of compromise,
is that we all CLEARLY label each post in the subject line.
Some kind of code would be good (eg: [OT], {DIG], etc.) if everyone could stick
to it. We would have to define this in advance, and maybe post it to
newbies with a "try to follow this if you can to keep everyone happy" type of
note. This would make it easier for those who don't wish to know about
certain aspects discussed here to filter things out. Of course, everyone would
have to adhere to this code for it to work properly, and to change the code
when a reply veers off onto another topic area, but with a little effort it
could improve things and hopefully keep everyone happy. Even if
some folks don't always follow it - at least things will be a little easier.
I think this idea has merit. There is one big problem, though, digest
users. For those who get the individual e-mails, filtering, group
deletion, etc. are easy and very effective ways of managing the posts to
individual tastes. Your proposed system would make this better. On the
other hand, it will be little help to digesters (Well, I digest too, but
you know what I mean!), who still have to scroll through a lot of stuff
of little interest to them. I don't understand why anyone would use the
digests, unless perhaps they are on an online service where they read
and manage mail online, like A*L, H*tmail, Y*hoo, etc., where deleting,
moving to the next mail, etc. each take a turnaround to the supplier and
slow everything down.
Using a real mail reader like Netscape Mail, MS's outlook things (but
they are virus targets) and others is a far superior way to manage a
list like this. They download everything, then browse and manage the
mail locally, faster, easier, more flexible. Sure, my list mail comes to
an ISP that lets me read and manage it on line, but it's a real pain
compared to Netscape Mail and I only do it if I'm away from home. Even
at the end of a corroded old twisted pair, downloading the toal content
individually shouldn't take that much longer than the same content in
the digests.
Anyway, many aren't going to agree with me, so any solution needs to
address their needs. I would much prefer a self policing system where we
show restraint in the volume of really OT stuff to keep traffic to a
reasonable level to the more serious solutions of thought police or
splitting up the list.
Tom Scales wrote:
That's the question, isn't it. I like it the way it is. I'd be happier if we
were a little more self-censoring when we go way off topic.
I agree. On the other hand, I consider stuff like the recent threads
about ink-jet vs. other printing very on topic for me. It's an issue
many of us face and I like getting info about various solutions from
people whose level of knowledge, biases, etc. I know. Just dropping into
a printer list, for example, I see lots of posts, some of which ore
going to be from people who don't know what they are talking about. Here
that's less frequent and I know whose opinions and experiences to put
the most weight on.
I did find it ironic that my clearly marked OT post about a competitive digital
camera resulted in abuse, including private emails, while 100+ posts
on Krispy Kremes were OK.
Well, that was just unfortunate. If I had been around, I'd have been one
of those jumping to your defense. OT or not, If a valuable long time
member doesn't get a little slack, it diminishes us all. You may have
noticed I made no posts to the KK thread, although I do have some
opinons on the matter. I also didn't jump on anybody for their KK posts.
Tom
<snip> On the other hand, if we split off all the off-topic and digital
discussion, will there be anything left? :)
So let's just try a little restraint. Then maybe we won't be put on a
highly specialized diet like poor Andrew (no judgment here of your
particular cause, Andrew, whatever it may be, just the example of the
unpleasantness of a diet without substance and variety!) or banished to
impoverished little back-waters. :-)
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