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[OM] Re: E10 quirks--just me?

Subject: [OM] Re: E10 quirks--just me?
From: Tim Hughes <timhughes@xxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 15:13:35 -0700 (PDT)
CH questioned some of the approx numbers discussed previously.
Here is a more accurate calculation from data-sheet graph numbers:
 

Warning, long boring engineering stuff:

 

Here is a link discussing the rate characteristics of Li-phosphate (?Valence 
Saphion?) lower voltage, higher rate Li cells:

http://powerelectronics.com/news/battery-li-ion/

also  http://www.valence.com/

These Li-phosphate cells can withstand 10-15C continuously and peaks of up to 
25C for 30sec. (compared to normal Li-Co: 2 to 3C max)  However, because they 
are phosphate cells, C capacity is lower, so in absolute terms, for the same 
size cell, they have more like 6 to 8C of a conventional cell! (In this case C 
is not a very good method of comparison and the vendor wants to make his 
batteries look better given the lower Whrs.)  Claimed cycle life >1000 at high 
rate, this is much better than conventional cells. A more subtle effect 
apparently, is impedance does not increase nearly as rapidly over cycle life, 
improving longevity for high cut-off voltage electronics.

 

?Average cell voltage?  (usually actually the voltage at C/5 and 50% capacity)

 makes high capacity chemistries look worse than they are, because C is so 
different.

 However, using C/5 std test points comparison : 

                   initial OC voltage       @25%      @50%     @90% discharge 

Li-Co           :    4.1V                     3.9V          3.75V      3.5V

Li-phosphate:   3.4V                      3.27V       3.25V      3.2V

NiMh           :   1.4V                      1.26V       1.25V       1.19V

 (From Molicell 18560H data sheet for high resolution Li-Co graphs.

  From Valence IFR18560 data sheet for Li-phosphate,

  From Sanyo NiMh Handbook for NiMh )

 Retail Vendors of CRV-3 replacements quote 3.25V ?average voltage?.

 

A more accurate Whr calculation of NiMh vs Li CRV-3 at C/5 rates, is then:

For  NiMh the nominal capacity is then :  1.25V*2.2Ah*4 = 11Wh

For CRV-3 rechargeable, capacity is then 3.25v*1.3Ah*2 = 8.45Wh

 

So the Li-ion,  look worse but actual users indicates the CRV-3?s are much 
better.

 

For higher peak currents the NimH starts with a much lower initial voltage.(see 
below)

This* likely * causes much lower minimum voltage dips and this is why users 
report very poor battery life from NiMh.

 

The nominal C/5 voltage comparison at 50% discharge is then:

 

6.5V   for  Li-phosphate CRV-3 

5.0V   for NiMh

for comparison disposable CRV-3 :

~5.8V   for non-rechargeable CRV-3 at 0.22A (@~C/5 for the CRV-3 rechargeable 
Li)

~5.4V   for non-rechargeable CRV-3 at 1.3A 4sec pulse   (from Kodak CRV-3 data)

and :

 7.5V    external Li-Co pack 

This shows the battery voltage drop under peak load can be ~1.5V larger for the 
Li-phosphate cell in comparison to NiMh. That is a huge 30% of NiMh's nominal 
5V.


This web site hypes CRV3 replacements  ($9.95ea) :

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1084

 

Claiming more camera shots than any NiMh, and more rapid recycle times from 
flashes.

 

A more subtle advantage may be the much lower self discharge rate for Li 
compared with NiMh, so they are better , after lying in your bag for a month!

 

Regards,

Tim Hughes







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