I've greatly enjoyed reading everything everyone has said here on the list
on this topic. It's a great bunch of people who have been very civil to
each other on what I am sure is a difficult and charged subject for some.
While I haven't put in my 2 cents (I've reserved that for social media)
it's been an interesting topic, discussed as adults, list Mum rules or no.
On Jun 22, 2015 4:29 PM, "Tina Manley" <tmanley@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I have lived in 10 states and 3 countries. All of the states except
> Illinois are in what is considered to be the South. The most racist state
> I have lived in was Illinois. I have traveled in most states and 67
> countries. The most racist state I have traveled in is Maine. The most
> racist country I have traveled in is Palestine.
>
> There you go.
>
> Tina
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Ken Norton <ken@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > Moose IX wrote:
> > > A matter of perspective ...
> > > A lot of places look strange to me from this perfectly normal place.
> :-)
> > > Benevolent Dictator Moose
> >
> > "Normal" is where you grew up. I've lived in four different states,
> > and find that the "normal" is abnormal in all four states. I grew up
> > in a racially mixed area with heavy black and hispanic populations. At
> > least a third of my graduating class was non-white. Did we have
> > problems? Sure, but not anything compared to a few years earlier when
> > we had the race riots. Schools did a huge clamp down on it and the
> > churches did their part too. We got things sorted out because we HAD
> > to get them sorted out. Neighboring communities were not so fortunate,
> > though. It all depends on the leadership and resolve of a community.
> > In recent years, the leadership has changed and so many of the gains
> > we made in the '70s and '80s have been reversed.
> >
> > Living in Quincy, Illinois, was a bit different. I felt like there was
> > a bit of a truce, but it never was a resolved conflict. We bought a
> > house in the "wrong" part of town and was ostricized by other white
> > people who grew up in that town. Those who were move-ins, like us,
> > could care less and had no issue with it. Our neighbors were great and
> > we got along with them perfectly well. We stayed in close contact with
> > one couple for many many years after we moved.
> >
> > I think Iowa is a bit odd in that most people just don't care. While
> > there are the meth-heads that are racists, for the most part people
> > around here just want to be respected and will treat others with
> > respect. Yes, every place has issues, but they are not the big issues.
> > We've got other issues we deal with. Like figuring out which
> > presidential candidates are worthless slimeblobs.
> >
> > A friend of mine at work has been bothered about moving his family
> > here from a major eastern city because of the lack of an
> > African-American population. They love it here and are treated very
> > well, but there are so few other African-Americans that they feel out
> > of place. I can understand.
> >
> > Honestly, of all the places I've been, and that includes extensive
> > business travel in Canada and most of Europe, I find that racism is
> > alive and well absolutely everywhere. It's just that the bigotry is
> > towards some other group of people. No country is immune. Even
> > Amsterdam, of all places, has issues. Go figure.
> >
> > As to the confederate flag. There are several factors in play which
> > makes the USA extremely unique. The presence of the flag today is a
> > result of a decision made by Abraham Lincoln. The idea was
> > restoration, not domination. The idea was to reunite the country, not
> > put people who fought on the wrong side of the war into prison. While
> > some of that happened, there was one particular flaw to the thinking
> > in that for you to have "reunification" you would have had to have had
> > a "unified" country to start with. The evidence is that from the very
> > founding of the country, the USA was never really "unified". It never
> > was. The roots of sectionalism started a hundred years before the war
> > for independence from England.
> >
> > To this day, you have tin types with Robert E Lee's photo on it
> > proudly displayed in households throughout the south. You've got all
> > sorts of artifacts from that time period. It's not just flags. This
> > was determined to be acceptable by our nation's leadership in order to
> > heal the country, not create a nation of winners and losers. The
> > success in this program was set back a few times and it took two world
> > wars, Korea and Vietnam before we really became one country.
> >
> > At some point, there was an attempted change in the historical
> > narrative. Instead of a war over slavery, it was a war against
> > federalism. While an argument could be made that this would have been
> > a "holy war", it wasn't what it was officially about. To downplay the
> > role of slavery in the decision to break away from the Union is to
> > ignore the facts. It is absolutely true that many people fought
> > because this other narrative, but the documents and constitution of
> > the Confederate States were about slavery. Even Abraham Lincoln
> > acknowledged both story lines and that helped influence his viewpoint
> > on reunification. It also influenced how he chose to fight the war.
> >
> > My vehicle happens to have been made in South Carolina by a company
> > that made airplanes and engines for the Nazi war machine, (BMW). Is it
> > possible that the BMW or Mercedes insignia is just as racist as the
> > confederate flag? No. It isn't. One is a "brand", but the other is a
> > "symbol". The two are worlds apart. Now, if BMW had a Swastika as
> > their logo, then yes, it would be as abhorant.
> >
> > What is the symbol for? What does it REALLY mean? It means you
> > "identify with". As a Christian, the cross is one of my symbols. I
> > identify with it and what it stands for. It isn't a decoration. It is
> > a statement.
> >
> > The beauty of the USA is that we have freedoms here that most people
> > in most countries don't understand and can't even fathom. Arguments
> > can be made about the gun violence, etc., but historically, the USA
> > has always been more than a bit rough. Substance abuse is rampant from
> > the very beginning--to the point where the King of England even tried
> > to cut off our supply of rum to get the colonies to sober up. That
> > didn't work--we switched to hard cider and fought a war with him.
> >
> > These freedoms include the ability to display whatever you want and
> > say whatever you want. That doesn't always mean that there aren't
> > consequences for those statements, but at least we do have the freedom
> > to be idiots. If an individual wants to display the confederate flag,
> > I say go for it! It's a great symbol because it instantly tells me
> > what type of person he/she is and I can go on with life. But for it to
> > be hung on the statehouse and other government buildings? Eeeeeww, not
> > so much. Why? because we have representative governments. This means
> > that the government actually represents us. To have this symbol as
> > part of the official portrayal of the government means that it is an
> > official portrayal of ME. That's what is wrong here. This isn't about
> > whether or not an NFL football team should change their name, it's
> > about official representation and identification.
> >
> > That's where we also run into another unique aspect of the USA. Each
> > state is able to choose their own flag and since this particular
> > symbol has never been outlawed by the federal government, it is up to
> > the state to make it right. Given cultural issues, and a long long
> > history, telling somebody that they MUST do something will usually
> > cause them to trench in and resist change even though they know that
> > they should change.
> >
> > AG
> > --
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> >
>
>
> --
> Tina Manley
> www.tinamanley.com
> tina-manley.artistwebsites.com
>
> http://www.alamy.com/stock-photography/3B49552F-90A0-4D0A-A11D-2175C937AA91/Tina+Manley.html
> --
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