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[OM] Re: advantage of higher res. scan when downsampling?

Subject: [OM] Re: advantage of higher res. scan when downsampling?
From: Moose <olymoose@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:29:58 -0800
Siddiq wrote:

>is there any technical reason to prefer higher resolution scans if the end  
>product is web-gallery use? 1800x1200 vs 3600x2400 roughly, say? the  
>former resolution scans cost 3$/roll over and above developing at sams,  
>the latter 9$/roll. it does give me more flexibility in cropping should  
>that need arise, but anything else?
>
In theory, yes, although it depends on the implementation. This is an 
exerpt from the instructions for VueScan, under the heading "Maximizing 
Image Quality"

"Another useful way of getting multiple image samples is to scan at a 
higher resolution and then average adjacent blocks of pixels. For 
instance, scanning at 2700 dpi and averaging every 2x2 block of pixels 
will result in a higher-quality 1350 dpi scan than just scanning at 1350 
dpi. Scanning at 1350 dpi in this case will throw away every other pixel 
and every other scan line, while scanning at 2700 dpi and setting 
"Output|TIFF size reduction" to 2 will result in averaging 2x2 blocks of 
pixels and increasing the number of effective bits of resolution by 2 bits."

There may be others who know more about scanning than Ed Hamrick, but 
they aren't talking. Assuming that the pricing you quote is at least 
partially related to the time it takes to do the scan, one might assume 
that what he says is true for your vendor as well, since scanning at 
higher resolution and downsizing would take longer.

>both are JPEG format (i KNOW i read that fuji frontier can output to lossless 
>TIFF format on photo.net threads, but i guess it depend on how well the 
>operator knows the machine, in my case they said they can do high res, not 
>lossless).
>
You may not be asking the right question here. JPEG compression can be 
lossless, very slightly lossy, but nonetheless quite high quality, or highly 
compressed and pretty bad. The JPEG process allows a wide range of 
quality/compression settings. You need to know what quality the scan outputs 
are and what that means in terms of results. 

Another issue is the other qualities of the scans. I was buying 2000x3000 pixel 
lossless scans for some time and liked them quite a bit for various Supras and 
the Portra NC films. I could use them for many web and small print uses. I also 
had a 2720 dpi scanner to use with special and/or tricky images. Then I had 
them scan and develop a roll of Portra VC. Way too contrasty, lost shadow 
detail and blown highlights, useless. I asked and was told they did no 
adjustments when scanning, what the machine (AGFA) does is what you get. Then I 
got back a roll of Portra 160NC with some strange off colors on several images 
and another roll just not right. I've given up now and just have the film 
developed and cut into strips of 6 to fit the scanner.

I've now gone to a Can*n FS4000 scanner, partly for the greater resolution, 
which doesn't make much if any difference for the web, and partly for the 
ability to scan 6 negs or 4 slides at once witout having to click the holder 
forward between frames. Lazy, I guess.  :-) 

Another issue with the scans you are buying is that they are 8 bit. That's fine 
for most shots, IF they get the histogram right. If not, and for images with 
very wide dynamic range, they are not going to give you what is in the film. 
Also, for images that need considerable adjustment to brightness, color, 
contrast and/or curves, the 8 bit dynamic range starts to get holes and bumps 
that can make the image look "funny" in sometimes hard to describe ways. 
Scanners with 12, 14, 16 bit depths don't have the same problem. 

One possibiliity for you is to buy the cheap scans to use as indicators of what 
is likely on the film and possibly for web use and an inexpensive scanner for 
keepers and those that the cheap scans don't do justice to. That's what I was 
doing with the FS2710. Another possibility is a cheap flatbed like the Epson 
3170 for $124 refurbished from the Epson on-line store. Although it won't give 
the same resolution as a 2700 dpi dedicated film scanner, it should be about as 
good as $9/roll scans in real resolution and better in color and control over 
the results. It also claims full 16 bit internal processing and output, but the 
sensors don't really have that great a range. Much better than 8 bit anyway. 
This is the scanner Richard L has been using for his lovely posts. For under 
$200, the Epson 4180 should beat the $9 scans in all respects. The thing to 
remember about flatbed scans of transparent sources is that they always need 
sharpening in the scan software or afterwards. There 
 are long discussions around about this, but the bottom line is that's just the 
way it is.

Moose






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