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[OM] Aircraft ammunition pictures [OT for Oly list]

Subject: [OM] Aircraft ammunition pictures [OT for Oly list]
From: "Olaf Greve" <olaf_greve@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 13:56:41 -0000
Hi guys,

First off: thanks all for your comments. Then some specific remarks:

[Lex]

Olaf, for the sake of being specific and cautious I'd refer to those items that are not loaded in cartridges as projectiles rather than bullets.

Alright, from now on I'll try using Chris' terminology a bit more strictly and I shall call the "projectile" the "round", and the "cartridge" the "casing"... (I hope I got it all right...)

The whitish oxidation you've noted on some projectiles can even be found on aging lead bullets. I'm inclined to think it's as much a factor of environmental conditions as of the metallurgy. Our artisian well water produces the same effect on pewter and certain aluminum kitchen utensils that are allowed to soak too long.

Yes, the oxidation is not much of a surprise to me. The rounds have been lying in the fields (exposed to rain etc.) for several years. They seem to have been made for the majority of a metal which contains iron (as they show rust), probably this part is regular (or hardened steel), and something of a light shade of metal, which most closely resembles aluminium. Now, supposing this is aluminium, I seem to remember that (sea) ships use blocks of aluminium as so-called "sacrificial metal", the idea is that aluminium is a stronger reductor than the metal of the ship it self, causing the aluminium to get oxidised rather than the ship (a simple yet effective trick) [I hope I remembered all this correctly from my high school chemistry classes]. So, it's not strange indeed to see that the tips of these bullets also got oxidised.

[...snip...]

Even many non-explosive rounds contain tracers spaced apart at least every few rounds.

I have wondered about those, but I think these must be made of some sort of material which burns when fired (hence leaving the "light trace"). I doubt they would look the same as regular rounds, but perhaps they do...

Do you have a safe storage facility for your collection that's detached from your dwelling?

Nope, they're all stored in my attic (in boxes and bags)...

It's certainly a nice collection.

Ahhh, you've only seen the tip of the iceberg! I have many more of the rounds/cases/shackles that are pictured on the page. Furthermore, there are some rarer pieces too: one of them is a 25mm casing that was given to me by someone who retrieved it in the former Yugoslavia, I would guess this comes from a Mig/Sukhoi. Then, there are the few odd casings I have from WWI (from 1917 and 1918, these seem to be field artillery type, something like 70mm), and from WWII, such as a 120mm Howitzer casing, as well as another one which is bigger still but of a smaller caliber (105mm I believe?).

Finally there's the small stuff, which is not rare but which I also like, e.g. the 7.62 mm casings that I have (some 120) which I've put in their black shackles, along with a bag full of Magnum .357 casings (retrieved on one of our US holidays :) ), etc, etc.

Knowing that there are many serious ammo collectors around the world I'd be surprised if there isn't a reference somewhere on the 'net to either a site or book containing more specific info.

Yes, this information should be out there somewhere...

Regarding the overall quality of the photos - try rigging a reflector/diffuser like my delicious Marie Callender pie pan and white styrofoam plate doodad. Diffusion helps tremendously in making photos of metallic objects readable.

Yes, if I'm ever going to take more pictures of this I will do so. It's little effort to have a T32 fire into a white umbrella (which I have in me own lil studio anyway) for more even lighting...

[Chris]

Not true I'm afraid.  These 20mm are rounds from an aircraft's gun,
probably an F16 since the F15s were AD only in that part of Europe,

Most likely indeed. There is (was?) one F15 squadron based in Soesterberg, this was a US squadron though, which was one of the "east-block-enemy-interception-squadrons". As there seems to be no further use for that squadron, I believe it moved back to the USA already. Then again, the F15s were not impopular in Germany, as during air shows I've seen several F15s that were stationed in Bittburg (perhaps a US squadron too? they definitely had German markings on them though). The F16 on the other hand is _the_ airplane that is being used by the Dutch air force, ever since it almost completely replaced the F5s in 1986. I write "almost", as there still used to be one F5 squadron left at Gilze-Rijen. This squadron is no longer there now though, it has made place for the only AH-64 Apache squadron that we have in the Netherlands. I don't know exactly which squadrons are present at the moment on the Twente air force base (in Enschede, where I live), but the 313 and 315 squadrons (both are F16 squadrons) used to be here. One of them, I believe 315 (which originally I think was from Soesterberg, but which was/is stationed at Twente for a long time), went to Villafranca for the Bosnia missions. No idea where these are nowadays.

and the standard war fit for air-to-surface is a mix of HE and AP.

Which makes sense...

He AP is normally kinetically piercing, the HE is a little bomb.
However, it was unlikely that much, if any, of the rounds fired on
this very small range (in US terms) was HE.

This is the kind of question I hope to get cleared up using the codes written on (or stamped into) the rounds/casings...

I don't recall there ever being an HE target since we normally had to travel to another range to have fun with our HE strafe (and fun it was!).

As a "typical HE target" I would expect to see some concrete/steel targets (or something else which is hard to pierce). On the Nordhorn range there were mainly cloth targets (which I presume were shot at with full metal jackets), and one old tank. The tank was painted in white and orange, and was presumable used for the drop bombs. The tank most definitely did not show any signs of having undergone an "A-10 DU treatment" (DU = Depleted Uranium), nor having been fired at with other types of ballistic armour piercing or HE ammunition...

[Warren and George]
I'd just like to add one word of caution to your finds. Even though the blue bombs are practice bombs, they may not technically be "inert". All the practice bombs I have seen demonstrated have a shotgun shell charge inside. This shell is meant to explode on impact, which doesn't destroy the bomb, but is designed to make a white puff of smoke to aid the scorer who is in the tower that you saw, determine exactly where a particular plane's bomb struck.
All the pilots are graded on their practice drops.

Just so... I think that Olaf knows that the practice bombs have some
sort of charge. The slick practice bombs (bigger and heavier) that
we used until about 6 years ago, the 28lb ones, had quite a charge in
them.

Indeed I do. This is exactly why I never even touched these bombs, let along bring them home...

For the RAF, a Direct Hit (or DH) has to be a little closer than that
- - except on the northern Dutch ranges at Noordvader and Vliehors
where you might be given a "DH a little long" ;-).  Those Dutch
scorers were my favourite... especially as they did not get too
excited if you dragged your live gun through their tower by lining up
on the wrong target!

:)))
Hehehe, funny indeed. I think, BTW, that those are the ranges used by the Dutch pilots and their F16s, rather than that they use(d) the Nordhorn range. 20mm casings were actually a rather rare find on the Nordhorn range (I only found some 30 or so of them, as opposed to the abundantly available 27mm and 30mm casings), so I doubt many F16s came there to use the range.

Another word of caution in case you're around when the aircraft are shooting- the "guns" 20 and 30mm etc, are shooting live rounds, and security would have to be tight to make certain you're not in line with the approach.

This is a thing which baffled me a bit: on weekend days there seemed to be zero security on the range, no idea about the security during weekdays though...

The gun target here looks like a giant white sheet with a red bullseye painted on it.

These would be similar then to the ones I have seen. Doesn't sound like a good hiding place when "busted" during an exercise ;)))

The bullseye BTW is near invisible at open-fire range, around 1100 yards on your typical pass with a 20mm. You can just see the shape of the target which normally counts the rounds passing a sensor.

It has always struck me as being particularly difficult to hit these targets from a jet fighter, I guess I was not wrong in assuming so!

The US Gatling-type aircraft guns make the coolest sounds as they wind up to speed (very quickly of course), firing their rounds. The sequence of sounds is: high-speed electric whine, very fast banging of the rounds firing followed by the firecrackers of sonic booms. If they were shooting explosive rounds the bangs at the target would follow the sonic booms.

I can only imagine...:)
Anyone who will ever have heard just how much sound a normal, say 9mm,
hand gun already makes when it is fired, will probably look in awe at
how laughably small such a bullet is when compared to the 20mm, 27mm, and especially the 30mm rounds pictured on my page. I wonder if the sound gets proportinally louder as the size of the rounds (well, the casings, really) increases. Makes me wonder what the sound would have been that was produced when the 120mm Howitzer casing I have at home was fired. Then, to take things to the extreme: I don't think I would have particularly liked being close to the guns that were used on ships like the USS Missouri to send the 800+ KG projectiles on a one way ticket towards the enemy. ;)

You keep the sight  just above the target until just before open fire
range when you lower it on smoothly, pause for half a second and fire
for half a second then recover at 4g to avoid the ground.  You get
down to about 125ft above the ground, 250 above the target as you
climb out again.  This is all quite exciting to think about it
again... but I'll never strafe again in my life unfortunately.

Sounds dificult indeed. What actually happened that you won't be doing it again, is it failing eye-sight? I'm sorry to hear that...

Cheerio!
Olafo

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